GGaD » {Apparently We're Forum Twins Now} Chat Thread for Time and Eliza

Time · March 1, 2023 01:43:47

Also I should note, I have an idea for character arcs. But not much in the way for story arcs/events.

Basket Cat · March 1, 2023 10:18:30

~~i love the fact that a random combination of keypresses i made over three years ago has become a household name~~

is Nulark your personal version of Time? I'm just curious lol
this is all really cool! I like the concept, its giving me steampunk-fantasy vibes and I love me some of that xD

Okay, you said you want to connect these three stories together into the overarching plot. That's really cool and it can actually become pretty easy to understand if its set up right.

My first recommendation is to think of a theme. All (good) stories have a theme of some sort. Having one in the story can not only help decide on a main plotline but also make your story meaningful and worthwhile to readers. I'm going to explain how I came up with my theme bc hopefully I can explain it better and make slightly more sense lol

A theme is a general statement about some larger truth (classic examples being "life is beautiful" or "love is powerful"). A premise is a sentence that uses that theme as it will be expressed through conflict and characters in your story ("Life is beautiful even in the ugliest circumstances" or "Love is powerful enough to defy death." Both of these premises state a truth/theme and conflict). Your premise and theme should both be something you actually believe to be true, not just something you think is true for the purpose of your story. It's hard to write something when you don't believe in it (definitely haven't been there before). From this, there should be a discernible "life lesson" that can be extracted from the story. It doesn't have to be complex or super deep or nuanced. Sometimes the best themes are the simplest ones.

So for my story, my theme was "true strength is doing the right thing." Kind of basic, but it was something I believed in and it was the type of story I wanted to tell. My premise was "true strength is doing the right thing even if it means taking the hardest path." My main character near the end of her story is faced with two options: abandon everything and guarantee her survival, or fight the villain and stop him from spreading his nanobot virus that keeps killing people. In her story, she wants to leave, but due to her altruistic nature and how much she cared about her friend who died trying to fight the villain as well, she decides to fight instead. Literally and figuratively she took the hardest path because she knew it was the right thing.

Okay, so what happens when you come up with a theme and a premise? How do you apply it to the characters? Well, you give the characters traits and symbolize a sliding scale of ideals.

The sliding scale of ideals is a useful tool when it comes to storytelling because, in essence, it is the story. A story is all about the clashing of opposing ideals. The positive extreme is represented by the main character, and the negative extreme is the villain, and there are some in-between places in there because nothing is simply one extreme or the other. They can also help form character motive, development, and all the good things we love in character arcs. You can even have your main character slide one way on the scale over the course of the story (you could make them go more negative but that probably should be avoided unless it really served the plot).

The basic sliding scale I used had for slots: Positive, Contrary, Negative, and Reversed/Ironic. Positive is, well, the positive extreme. Contrary is the middle ground/gray area, and negative is the flipside of the positive. The fourth is interesting, as it can be either the negative ideal masquerading as a positive ideal, or the negative ideal directed at the self.
So in the example they had in my textbook, you could have love -- disdain -- hatred --hatred masquerading as love, or love -- disdain -- hatred -- self-hatred.

For my story, I had altruism, indifference, selfishness, and selfishness masquerading as altruism. I decided to use the rev./ironic approach and have my basic "good vs evil" setup look like this:

altruism -- selfishness disguised as altruism

This is important because the entire story is based upon those opposing ideals clashing together in the climax of the story. One ideal will win over the other, and once that happens, the story is over.

tl;dr: come up with a theme and a premise and it'll help you come up with the kind of story you want to tell which can lead to coming up with things such as a main story goal and a villain

Time · March 2, 2023 02:23:05

Yes sir, thank you for that name.

What, Nulark as another version of Time??? Who could have saw such a thing coming?

But yes, it is definitely a fantasy with at least some touches of steampunk in it. I don't think full on steampunk, but there's an influence.

A theme though, huh? I never really though of one. I kinda just hoped one would pop up as I went on writing. It does really make me think, because you talked about a theme, and then brought in ideals.

The thing is for the main cast/protagonists, I don't think I wish for them to be painted in a clear "hero" light. If they are supposedly on the more good side of morality, I want to give them an indistinguishable blemish (save a few exceptions), if they're more selfish and evil, I want to give them exceptions where they will be kind and selfless. Granted the antagonists will usually be worst than them, but I think sometimes having on on their exact level of morality would make it cool as well.

So atm, I'm thinking of a more neutral theme. Not a "good triumphs evil" kinda theme. Maybe something very open with truth or with happiness, as I'm thinking in the end, all of the characters want something like that. So that it can be more flexible to work with.

Time · March 2, 2023 02:33:09

Another big thing I was thinking about is a distortion of a character's motivations, and any inner conflict that results in differing actions from the norm.

I'm thinking that nearly every central character has either a complete change up in their motivations by the end, or at least had a good shaking in their beliefs to the point they may have blundered once or twice.

I think a good portion of the main cast, even ones outside of the characters im focusing my character arcs on are just searching for a way to achieve their sense of happiness or truth, which ofc differs for a lot of character's, or could be something a character does not know at all.

Last edited by Time (March 2, 2023 02:35:41)

Basket Cat · March 2, 2023 09:45:59

Time wrote:
Yes sir, thank you for that name.

What, Nulark as another version of Time??? Who could have saw such a thing coming?

But yes, it is definitely a fantasy with at least some touches of steampunk in it. I don't think full on steampunk, but there's an influence.

A theme though, huh? I never really though of one. I kinda just hoped one would pop up as I went on writing. It does really make me think, because you talked about a theme, and then brought in ideals.

The thing is for the main cast/protagonists, I don't think I wish for them to be painted in a clear "hero" light. If they are supposedly on the more good side of morality, I want to give them an indistinguishable blemish (save a few exceptions), if they're more selfish and evil, I want to give them exceptions where they will be kind and selfless. Granted the antagonists will usually be worst than them, but I think sometimes having on on their exact level of morality would make it cool as well.

So atm, I'm thinking of a more neutral theme. Not a "good triumphs evil" kinda theme. Maybe something very open with truth or with happiness, as I'm thinking in the end, all of the characters want something like that. So that it can be more flexible to work with.

I mean you can just write stuff out and usually some kind of theme might show up but when you don't know what to write it can be a good starting point.

They don't have to be! In fact, having characters that are more in those neutral ideals can be really intriguing, especially since that means that their ideals can slowly slide either way. My character started out with a neutral ideal, one of indifference, but gradually grew to altruism as her story progressed.

Also, the thing you're talking about, about not wanting to make characters perfect rays of sunshine and giving them flaws and vice versa for the villains? That's called making your characters human and its a very good thing to have. In fact, heroes/protagonists should always have a large flaw of some kind, something that can (and should) be used against them, something that they will have to reflect on eventually if they want to achieve the story goal (or their personal goal).

So what I'm reading is that you want the theme to be something along the lines of ~~the US Constitution~~ finding true happiness?

Time · March 3, 2023 03:43:40

Well, for some characters I'm considering things like they start neutral, and they stay overall neutral. Sure, some of their beliefs and ideals change, but overall, they might not have a positive character arc.

I mean, yeah ik what making a character human is... its just like, how do I word this. They are going to be responsible for doing absolutely heinous things. Stuff a villain would do. Sometimes being extremely selfish... I just described the highs and lows of a character arc didn't I. I think maybe for now, just I'll think on the morality of the characters.

I guess instead I should be focusing more on the theme. I was just throwing out a few ideas off the top of my head. I suppose a story of finding true happiness could be one of the ways to look at the story I'm trying to create. But I also feel such a thing is very open.

Basket Cat · March 3, 2023 11:19:50

I think you're lowkey describing anti-heroes but that's a whole other can of worms I won't go into xDDDD

it is a pretty "open" theme but that's where the premise helps adding a "even when" can make it a lot more specific but necessarily close it off if that makes sense

Time · March 4, 2023 03:07:46

I keep on doing that. I think I keep on describing something that already has a name but I just don't really think about it or fully associate it.

But yeah. That might be a smart idea to add a "even when". I just think I need to run an idea over what I think is an "even when" sorta situation. Do you ever run into any other helpful theme tip making ideas? Or other phrases like "even when"?

"Follow your desires, even if it's hard."
"Follow your desires, by any means necessary."

"There is a balance, between ignorance and truth"
"There is a balance to everything."
"Truth/knowledge is power"

"Life is a precious thing, so best to fight for it."
"Life is a precious thing, and a very delicate one too."

Time · March 4, 2023 03:17:31

Only somewhat related but:

I was looking about themes and I came across the idea of "The Death of the Author". It seems like an interesting idea that I like personally.

I feel like I'll probably find a good theme, but eventually when the story has enough development and plot, I'll have it fall away and let the story remake and change itself to its liking. Like a plant!

I have a good idea as to where I may want to start and end the characters stories, but a lot of what is missing is an overarching connection and much of the middle.

Time · March 4, 2023 03:20:32

Also with those themes that I quickly splurged:

I think the first life theme is kinda cool. It think it also fits most characters... but at some point I'd like to maybe do something about truth. But the ones about desire (I replaced happiness with desire) are also interesting. I like the ambiguity of the second one.

Basket Cat · March 4, 2023 11:04:25

hmmmmmmmm

you want a main villain that appears in all of the stories? Or maybe an event that kicks off all of them and they happen somewhat simultaneously?

Time · March 4, 2023 19:37:02

Hm. I was thinking of both...?

A starting event and related villains can both be cool. But if I had to chose one, it would be a starting event, showing that there are multiple stories going off of one thing is cool.

I originally thought that the entire group (Nulark, Sek, Kal-Shin, all the other main cast allies) were all together in a team, but now that you're talking about it, having them separate and such may also be a way to go

Basket Cat · March 4, 2023 22:03:03

I mean a villain making an event that causes a cascade effect is totally doable

you could also have them separate for their three stories and for the fourth they sort of unite for the final arc where they take down the bad guy

you could also have the characters from other arcs cross over and appear in parts of others' story which could help establish when things happen and that they're all in the same world

Time · March 5, 2023 05:20:13

Honestly yeah that sounds cool too. That characters crossing over could really be nice. I love seeing character arc crossovers.

Though I'd be kinda sad, because I kinda wanted them all in the same place so they could banter as a group more lol.

Last edited by Time (March 5, 2023 05:20:28)

Basket Cat · March 5, 2023 12:18:08

that's a sacrifice one must make

I loved having two of my characters banter but then I had to kill one of 'em for the plot so 🤷‍♀️

Time · March 5, 2023 21:08:24

Yeah I getcha. I mean, I'm probably going to kill off half of the main cast.

It's just for default, I'd like them to develop relationships with everyone, hence why I thought it would be nice for them all to be together. I'd think I would have to change slightly change up a few endings for personal character arcs, but I don't think it'll be much of a problem...

Well, anyways, I can def go for now with a singular event starting, and a singular villain ending. That would be interesting.

Basket Cat · March 5, 2023 21:21:55

wait no I didn't mean killing off that many people-

yes

Time · March 6, 2023 02:04:13

No, I determined who is going to live and who is going to die in the main cast. Atm, there are about... 9 main cast members that I had in mind for the allies? Ofc characters and whatnot are still in a large WIP... but my first thoughts in mind were that I have for sure an idea in this main cast, 4 are definitely going to die, and from there, the survival of 3 more is currently up for debate within my mind. So give or take, most likely about half or a little less will live.

Though, not all of it is senseless killing. They're also as a tool to further the plot. I know who as well.

Last edited by Time (March 6, 2023 02:05:32)

Time · March 6, 2023 02:07:57

Some of them are to be fodder and prove a point/tone, but still may play a role after their death. Others will of course help with character development.

Basket Cat · March 6, 2023 13:32:52

the most important thing to remember about character deaths is that they must serve a purpose. If you kill an important character you cannot kill it for shock value because people will think its cheap.

I'd recommend you check out Overly Sarcastic Productions "Trope Talk" videos, specifically their ones about character deaths and "fridging" which is basically characters for shock value. You might find their anti-hero video helpful as well.

Time · March 6, 2023 16:14:44

Yeah I get it. I wonder how I can kill a character unexpectedly with shock value but also make it really not cheap or whatever

When we were talking about this stuff, it kinda reminded me of them. I figured that's where you saw got a lot of tips lol.

Basket Cat · March 6, 2023 17:24:11

well OSP certainly helped but I spent an entire year learning how to write a novel so that's where I've learned a lot of it lol

Time · March 6, 2023 18:30:39

Tru, experience is a great teacher. I'll go watch those vids at some time.

Maybe while I'm at it I'll look at Bryan Sanderson or something. I haven't really sat through one of his full lectures.

Last edited by Time (March 6, 2023 18:32:00)

Basket Cat · March 6, 2023 18:32:19

ye

I didn't know he did lectures

Time · March 6, 2023 18:48:07

There are a few of his lectures online I think.

Whenever I'm listening to a lecture, I feel like I have to take notes. That's probably why I've been avoiding them

Last edited by Time (March 6, 2023 18:48:18)

Basket Cat · March 6, 2023 19:38:11

*never takes notes durig lectures*

ok

Time · March 6, 2023 20:41:10

It's a habit that I've built up over the years

Basket Cat · March 6, 2023 22:26:34

no that's fair

its probably a better habit than not taking notes ngl

Time · March 7, 2023 00:01:10

ikr

anyways, I'm thinking about those videos you sent me about. I was watching them...

The one about character death I thought the multiple ways you could make something tragic was just as interesting. Probably the most helpful thing I gleaned from it is how to sell the death. I liked it.

Not going to lie, to be honest, the one on fridging had me like, "Ok I get why it's bad but where's the answer" and when the solution presented was "make your characters, even the secondary ones more human and make them like the main characters of their own story" I just thought that's my default kinda overall. It just seems for me that you just need to build a character in a shorter amount of time.

I mean, I think it could very possibly be an over exaggeration that two of the characters I placed in the main cast are actual main characters (still, you know character placements are wip),

The one on antiheros just told me to kinda ignore those tags and just focus on the character and what story I want to tell on them. That what makes an antihero is extremely subjective.

Basket Cat · March 7, 2023 10:07:34

It may seem like a "basic" thing for you but that's probably you've been subconsciously implementing those techniques since you've been writing for a while. You'd be surprised at how many people don't understand things like making your characters realistic

yeeee

I'm glad they helped you at least some xD