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April 7, 2021 01:35:25  #5371


Re: Unlimited Chatting, Planning, and Weird Things ~ (@GalaxE and Spec)

Thank you. I'll tell my mom to relay the message, and I hope they can get better soon as well :>.


Specter
Let your world be a world 
that you build with a smile!

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April 7, 2021 01:45:17  #5372


Re: Unlimited Chatting, Planning, and Weird Things ~ (@GalaxE and Spec)

Np! Let me know if I can help somehow.

-Galaxian-


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April 7, 2021 01:50:06  #5373


Re: Unlimited Chatting, Planning, and Weird Things ~ (@GalaxE and Spec)

GalaxianExplosion wrote:

I can't really say everything at the same time, but probably things such as: The roles and goals of mages in the world, how they interact, their history, how families work/the norm for how families are, the magic system, whether this is a Forengard-based Earth-type world or actual Earth, how humanity generally evolved in the world here (e.g. together? Separately? Probably separately ngl), the existence of deities...and going off a branch, where the Grail War is, its purpose, its starters/how it started, how participants are chosen (like in canon or differently), how precedents went (if there were precedents). 
There are more but I'm too lazy to think. So.

I'm sorry this reply isn't very long lol. I don't wanna disappoint xD so I hope it's not that bad xD. Anyways!

I agree that all things you mentioned are essential for this worldbuliding, but I think that we should probably focus first on the Forengard/Earth thing, humanity's development (that probably depends on the previous topic I listed), mage goals, and the Holy Grail War's purpose.
For some of these (especially mages and their families apparently) we seem to be basing off what's been shown in Fate, but also idk, at least imo it's not that easy to stick to everything that has been said lol, plus there's some ambiguous things anyways. 
Lol I'd actually love it if we were a bit looser on the magic system! Idk I feel it would let us have better freedom for our characters xD. 
I sure hope that deities exist or else I'mma have to edit one of the ideas I have for a Servant's legend lol. Isn't it kinda funny that in canon GGaD there's demigods but we don't have any in this AU? xD
Personally, I'd like it more if this weren't the first Grail War to have happened in the world. It would give characters more of a chance to prepare and more or less know in what they're participating.

Don't worry much about being lazy... we can talk topics as they pop up. It's fun anyways! I'm the one you should be chiding for laziness xD.

I'm going to sleep for now, so feel free to type a long post or something if you want and I'll reply to it tomorrow :D.
Again, good luck with homework! And sleep tight, ttyl uwu.


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April 7, 2021 02:26:40  #5374


Re: Unlimited Chatting, Planning, and Weird Things ~ (@GalaxE and Spec)

Good night.
I would love to post a long response, but there's one thing I forgot to say. It's highly important we don't leave what the world is ambiguous. For instance, if the world is Earth, then we will likely be confined by legends/myths/history of the real world. It is pretty much accepted by the Fate verse that gods do indeed exist, but no longer do they live by Man. That ended with the Age of the Gods, Babylonia version. So, if we're going by Earth being the setting, the gods likely do not interfere much with humanity and what it does. 
For that reason, I think it's more likely we go with the Forengard-based version of Earth. We're pretty familiar with it, can be free with our imaginations, and it's more likely the timeline and such work in our favor. The magic system would also reasonably be different, if there is an universal one at all. And most importantly, deities would probably be existent.
However. Just because deities are existent doesn't mean that I think they should have as active as a role in the world as they do in GGaD. If they do, I would definitely love an explanation for it. Deities and demigods are definitely OP (,,, my demigod characters can be, anyways), so at the very least, I don't think they should be able to interfere with the world easily. If demigods can still actively be born in the world at this point, which depends on the status of the deities, then I'm supposing they are more like mages than gods if they do practice magic. And if demigods have been heroes in the past, I'm guessing they're eligible for summon but might be very hard to summon. Or something like that. It's 1 A.M. and my brain has unmiraculously self-fried.  
The way my mind was kind of going was that it's unlikely mages would be so fervent for discoveries and improvement if it were so easy to gain access to deities' help. That's my opinion at least. The Age of the Gods in the AU might have lasted much longer than it supposedly did on Earth. It also might have ended differently, which I think is likely if we're going this route. I'd even like to think that the Grail War and other similar occurrences have something to do with the gods. Just thinking...if we go off the path of magicky magic to explain how the Grail can grant wishes, who else could grant wishes? Probably the gods. Who could revive Heroic Spirits? Probably the gods. Who could make sure those Heroic Spirits are actually heroic and bastards like Gilles de Rais don't appear? Yeah, probably the gods. I'm probably biased, though, since when I say "the gods" for the last two, I kinda mean a god of life or something along those lines, as well as similar existences. :D
Reminder to myself to respond to the questions I posted once we get this sorted out.

-Galaxian-


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April 7, 2021 09:10:10  #5375


Re: Unlimited Chatting, Planning, and Weird Things ~ (@GalaxE and Spec)

Ok! I agree (lol back to saying "I agree" xD) with what you've said. I'd like to know, though, what do you exactly mean by "Forengard-based version of Earth"? I think I know what you mean but I'd rather make sure so we're on the same page. I'm known for misunderstanding stuff too and it would be a hindrance if we're working together.
Freer imagination :0 I'm on board with this. Sure, let's make that canon!
Well, idk, I was having the idea that deities were active "long ago" and currently don't interact with the world much if at all. And I was thinking more of Servants when I mentioned demigods but you have a point there. I mean, even in the Fate universe, summoning demigods generally means that they have a famous legend associated with them and the amount of power the Servant has makes them hard to sustain. At least that's what I've seen and interpreted lol. Ah, brain self-fry... mood, sadly. But don't worry! We're here to support each other's fried brain (and hope the result isn't fried as well xD) :D.
I wasn't really thinking people could interact with deities easily (maybe even not at all, which is more likely) in the AU's "present time". Ooh... so the Holy Grail has something like the "power of the deities"?  Well, you're saying that, but there's also deities that aren't that "good" and could completely lead to irregular Servants being summoned... therefore maybe those deities just aren't involved with the Grail at all or if it does happen maybe it's only been once? But yes, in essence, I'm pretty sure I'm understanding your thoughts here. Or at least I think I am xD. It's important to be on the same wavelength so I hope I'm not making an understanding mistake lol.
But like, lol, idk just saying Clocktower makes me think of Time and Chronos lol so what about that.

Ok!


Specter
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April 7, 2021 12:10:49  #5376


Re: Unlimited Chatting, Planning, and Weird Things ~ (@GalaxE and Spec)

It's just what it is. Forengard mostly seems to be interpreted as a planet, and it wouldn't be able to sustain life (disregarding the influence of deities) if it weren't like Earth. That's not the way I interpret it, but it's the logical way to go for this. Specifically, the time the AU is in would be the modern sect, with the medieval sect having already "happened" rather than it coexisting with the modern sect, as it is (or seems to be?) in GGaD canon.
I'm not too much of a fan of the Age of Gods ending with gods being like "bye bye humanity" and just leaving, like how in Greek mythology they did (with Astraea being the last one to leave iirc). I'm not quite familiar with all cultures, but in Fate, it's stated that Babylonia's Age of the Gods ended due to a variety of factors--when Solomon died, when Babylonia fell, and in 700 BC due to unknown reasons. Buuut, in Chinese culture, there are no references to the deities dying or disappearing from contact with humans. Even though the Chinese are/have been mostly atheist, there are deities being referred to in all paths of mythology. So, I don't consider "the Age of the Gods," or specifically its end, to refer to Chinese deities even in Fate canon.
I guess it depends on planning how the Age of the Gods' end actually worked and what it means now. For instance, when it was, where the deities are, if they can be summoned as Divine Spirits (or if the system is a bit different in the AU), when the end of the demigods came, etc.
I was more thinking that if deities are involved in the Holy Grail Wars, it's likely that only the deities with related domains really have any control over it. Personally, for a certain life deity, I was thinking that he harbors a bit of control. I actually personally headcanon he was the one who enforced the rule that the dead shall not influence the living, and if the rule is broken, I think Heroic Spirits will have much more difficulty existing and/or certain components about them (stats?? Spirituon cores?) are changed accordingly. But mostly he only supervises (if that's the word) the "life" aspect of the Grail Wars. Otherwise, I would think that the primary overseers of any Grail War would be those related to wishes and--primarily--magic. There are a lot of magic deities in Forengard, after all, and I think that fact would make sense in the AU, lol. Of course, there are more deities (like I kinda thought about Heroic Spirits having connection to a certain deity of ghosts), but yee. 

-Galaxian-


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April 7, 2021 12:56:03  #5377


Re: Unlimited Chatting, Planning, and Weird Things ~ (@GalaxE and Spec)

Me here trying to make a reply that makes sense lol
So Forengard is "Earth" in this AU? Or is it called Earth anyways? Got it, modern sect is present time then! 
Hmm... I haven't put a lot of thought into the end of the Age of Gods. For some reason, I've been imagining it more like deities went into Spectator Mode (so to speak) or something like that but progressively. Like, idk how it will work out in this AU, but I'm probably thinking that way because it's likely that my deity would have done something like this lol. I think Divine Spirits are relevant mostly to F/GO though? I'm not sure what's the criteria for their summoning tbh. If you know it, please enlighten me! And about the end of the demigods, I guess it must have been related somehow to the end of the Age of Gods (lol stating the obvious, yayyy me) but perhaps it took a bit longer for divinity to die out? I mean, idk how godly genetics work tbh xD but if there's 1/4th demigods then there must be something of the sort that's possible.

Ah, okay! It makes more sense if only related deities are involved, actually. I wonder what the purpose of the creation of the Grail was in the first place?
The idea that I get about the penalty for breaking the "life influence" rule would be something like restriction of movement and stat rank-downs. I don't see why that deity's involvement in the Grail War that way couldn't be canon! So, up to ya :D.
Oooh spirits 👀👀👀 lol I'm SO tempted xD. Whaddaya say? 

This is a random concept... but, magic as a means of trying to imitate the power of the deities??? It could be an interesting lore reason I think. Like, idk, it's probably less powerful than the magic in the past, as in the Fate universe, so idk maybe it's something like magic was originally granted by deities or something.
It's just one of those ideas I say randomly without much thought lol feel free to ignore it.


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April 7, 2021 13:28:24  #5378


Re: Unlimited Chatting, Planning, and Weird Things ~ (@GalaxE and Spec)

In GGaD, my characters use "Forengard" and "earth" (uncapitalized) interchangeably. For instance, they could say "What on Forengard?" or "What on earth??" It's just that they don't say "Oh my God" they say "Oh my gods." Or stuff like that.
For some reason, it feels like most deities don't withdraw influence over humanity/Forengard unless they're literally forced to. Then again, I also have a deity who's incredibly involved with human affairs. Most other deities seem to prioritize their own lives first, while my deity is like, "Kinda actively dying but I'ma help the humans first uwu"
Divine Spirits are said to be the highest variation of Nature Spirits, which kinda interests me because that makes me think of Germaine and Youri. Even if I'm misinterpreting it, I don't think I need to stop misinterpreting it like so, because maybe thinking of it in that way is helpful. Anyhow, most Divine Spirits don't appear in normal Grail Wars, yes. 
This somewhat lacks a transition, but specifically for the life deity, I was thinking of how in GGaD there's not really a single belief in one god (though some focus on one god, e.g. Novaspawn focus on Nova as their one god even if the other gods do exist; they think of Nova as superior or the true one or smthn, I kinda forgot what Xenon said), so unlike Fate, where most Rulers are Saints/Holy Knights/related to God, in the Fate AU it's more of a...well. I'll just cut to the chase, haha. I was thinking Galaxian is an eligible Spirit for Summons, but not by a human. He's a Ruler! If the "you shall not influence the living" rule is excessively broken or he can clearly project it as a future event (via prophesy), he likely appears. He's a bit different than canon Rulers like Jeanne in Apocrypha, though. He likely actually manifests by himself via the Grail (rather than the Grail manifesting him) and he isn't compatible with any host, so his form is different than Servants'? I'm not sure how to explain it, but I guess Ruler would be the only Class he's eligible for because it wouldn't be fair for deities themselves to participate. Anyhow, it's not like we can see Galaxian in this AU, specifically the part we're roleplaying, but he probably has a more active role than most deities because of his choices. I'm not sure how his abilities are balanced to the extent of Servants (so he doesn't, like, destroy the concept of Ruler by just being able to go "Sayonara :D" on problematic Spirits' existences) but it's a concept in the first place, so xD
I said "I kinda thought about Heroic Spirits having connection to a certain deity of ghosts"
To figure out related questions, we probably need to think more about the magic deities. Again, Time isn't in the AU, so he can't confirm this. But looking at GGaD canon, excluding Annette, the (active) deities of magic (who I'm familiar with) seem to be mostly mortal-born. Time, Chronos, Kenshin, Rune.
I'm not actually sure about the origins of Ark and Drago, though it does say Drago was born to humanoid parents even though she's a hybrid, for "unknown reasons."
Anyways, I'm not sure how to say this, but I guess if those magic deities (and presumably others) were mortal-born in the first place, perhaps that's something important for lore, related to the Age of the Gods, maybe, and the Grail. Perhaps magic itself is a way to try to become a deity, not just to imitate them. Who knows? I just know that I can't say much for my deity's end, since he was never a human. 

-Galaxian-


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April 7, 2021 14:40:06  #5379


Re: Unlimited Chatting, Planning, and Weird Things ~ (@GalaxE and Spec)

Yeah that's kinda what I do too.
I don't have a reason for why they would stop interfering with earth, then. I don't know. Maybe because it was the best for humanity? Maybe humanity was developing in a way that deities were worshipped less. I don't know.
Lol I guess there's some differences in the way my Forest Spirits are interpreted when compared to regular mythology and stuff though. I don't feel it would be correct to grant them the Divinity trait because, as opposed to nymphs' common interpretation in mythology, they're not seen as "minor gods" or worshipped.

Okay, your idea's very interesting! I like it. Let's see... in regards to what you said, I was thinking that perhaps there's a deity (or more than one idk) that has some kind of control over the stats and skills/abilities of those that the Grail brings into the world as a way to keep "balance". Because y'know it wouldn't really be fair for someone OP to just come in and do stuff lol. And like, Servants, even if powerful (or OP, which might be ok tbh), have the drawback that they have to rely on their Master's mana in order to exist. Or not their Master's specifically, but they can't freely exist. That in itself is balance, I'd say. So, if Galaxian comes into play as a Ruler, I guess he'd be granted stats and skills in a similar way.
I like that this version of the Holy Grail seems very pure hehe.
By the way, how does this Grail manifest? I know that in the canon a homunculus had to be sacrificed and the Einzberns provided that. Maybe here there's another way.

I know you said that xD I meant what do you think.
Well, they were originally mortal, but who's to say that there wasn't another deity of magic before them? Idk I wouldn't want to think much about that possibility xD it makes more sense to stick to basing ourselves off from what we know in the canon GGaD. 
The way to become a deity. That sounds interesting. Maybe that's the purpose of practicing magic... as families increase their magic potential, they may hope that their descendants one day achieve a state similar to deityhood. If it's like that, then maybe that purpose isn't known to many, maybe just those who really are involved in the magic world. 


Specter
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April 7, 2021 15:23:27  #5380


Re: Unlimited Chatting, Planning, and Weird Things ~ (@GalaxE and Spec)

In Galaxian's case, he constructs his own form, like he does in GGaD. Funnily enough, I think his stats would be pretty bad save for a few, at least compared to even the Servants here. Like, this is a prototype come up with on the spot, but probably something like:
Strength: D
Agility: A
Luck: E
Endurance: EX
Mana: E

Probably in a way that's less dark. In Fate canon it had to do with the Grail manifesting as Heroic Spirits/Servants disappeared and returned to it. Maybe here it has more to do with magic in addition to that.

I "[think] about  Heroic Spirits having connection to a certain deity of ghosts" :D

Who knows? Maybe mortals doing Grail Wars has benefit to the deities. Maybe it's to find out something deities don't know themselves, or can't do themselves. Maybe that's why the deities are interested/invested in it, at least partially. Related to magic? Or on a larger scale, related to the deities' origins, which if found out could perhaps make for greater power for the deities or to break the stalemate of how they've been unable to interfere with Earth for a majority of the time for a long time? Who knows. Many possibilities exist.

-Galaxian-


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April 7, 2021 15:31:02  #5381


Re: Unlimited Chatting, Planning, and Weird Things ~ (@GalaxE and Spec)

Aw that's kinda sad lol.

Yeah I sure hope it's less dark. Still don't know "how" though xD.

Bruh xD you made me facepalm lol.

That's interesting... too bad I can't contribute to the thought(s) much lol, at least at the moment. Sorry.
In essence, though, we're saying that the magic and stuff in thie AU is thanks to the deities, right?


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April 7, 2021 15:54:34  #5382


Re: Unlimited Chatting, Planning, and Weird Things ~ (@GalaxE and Spec)

He probably has stellar skills though xD stellar is a pun hehe
I guess I'll let you think, lol. I don't particularly like to spew out ideas to others if they're not going to give feedback at the moment.
Did I say that? Maybe modern magic is sourced from the deities. Not necessarily "magic" as a whole, though. That's left up to debate.

-Galaxian-


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April 7, 2021 15:58:55  #5383


Re: Unlimited Chatting, Planning, and Weird Things ~ (@GalaxE and Spec)

xDDD

It's fine, I'm just focused on something else atm lol sorry. Maybe later I'll have something interesting to discuss tho? Maybe.
No, I mean like, we're giving deities a greater role in the AU (even if not directly present) and its lore, right? I haven't really thought much about magic itself.


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April 7, 2021 19:10:07  #5384


Re: Unlimited Chatting, Planning, and Weird Things ~ (@GalaxE and Spec)

I had some thoughts to share but they've fled from my brain xD. Let's see what I can remember here.

I'm not sure if you mentioned this earlier but, do we have an idea of "where" the deities are at the moment? I thought perhaps some of them (probably only the ones related to the whole Holy Grail War thing) reside inside the Grail or something, although they can't influence external events. I think it could make sense because then it kinda explains where they went and why they're not active, though I have no idea of the reason for this and I need to put more thought into it. Having the Grail be directly related to deities grants it the title of "Holy" too. I mean, it already has it, but it would be nice to have an explanation.
Going a bit with ^ that idea, maybe the Holy Grail War has been happening periodically after the Age of Gods ended, but idk. I just like the idea that the one we'll be roleplaying hasn't been the first one to happen. Maybe by achieving something like "true magic" it would establish the perfect link for deities to return to the world, like you mentioned. It could be that it hasn't happened because of failed Wars and selfish wishes tho?

I also wanted to mention that maybe this AU Grail doesn't need all 7 Servants to be sacrificed? I don't think we've determined any second or "major" motive for the War yet other than the wish, but if we're assuming that out version of the War is "purer" than the one shown in canon Fate, then it wouldn't be necessary to force the last Servant to sacrifice themselves for their Master's wish and instead would allow a pair to get both their wishes granted. Does this make sense? 

I'm sorry if the style seems kinda choppy, but I'm tryina gather bits of thoughts together and it's being really hard :') so I'm definitely forgetting some things I wanted to add in there, but as always, I'll tell you if I remember.
 


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April 7, 2021 19:57:32  #5385


Re: Unlimited Chatting, Planning, and Weird Things ~ (@GalaxE and Spec)

We should also consider how candidates are chosen. Like, at the beginning of F/Zero (when Illya was just born), Kiritsugu already has his Command Spells. I don't recall exactly, but I don't think Saber was summoned that early??
If we were to go with the Grail Wars being needed to find the deities' origins, that would also mean that the deities likely aren't in the mortal world at all. Maybe their forms diminish the more they're in direct contact with humans. As such, the purpose of the Grail Wars was passed down before the "Age of the Gods" actually ended, where gods were unable to maintain contact with humans for the most part. That would go along with what you said, because it's not like the purpose was randomly and suddenly communicated for this generation.
Unfortunately, if all of this is to grant somewhat limited wishes to both Masters and Servants, it'd be primarily for the deities' benefit. Though, I guess no Fate AU could get all that sunshine and rainbows if it didn't have lore reasons.
It's possible that the Holy Grail might be a manifestation and existence separate from the mortal world, which means deities could theoretically be in it, perhaps to just grant the two wishes for the two victors of the Grail War. But that doesn't mean deities are constantly just in it, just that when the Grail manifests, it gives the deities a very tiny chance to be in the mortal world. Perhaps the Grail is even a manifestation of a deity form that mortal eyes can't understand. Who knows?
I don't think the link is magic by itself. Well, maybe I think that's boring. Who knows. But if it's related to magic, it's probably kinda an ongoing trial to try to see if mortal mages can reach the point that the deities want without any guidance from the deities (which is why I think the deities' circumstances are forced, not due to their own decisions). So far, the Grail Wars haven't necessarily "failed," but they sure haven't reached the objective the deities want to reach yet. 
If needed, I can put my independent thoughts together instead of seeming like I'm half-responding to what you're saying. But that's a bit of what I'm thinking. It sounds a bit imposing because I don't acknowledge what you're saying, but I kinda needed to get my thoughts out before they disappear or turn into a huge jumble, both of which are the usual.

-Galaxian-


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April 7, 2021 20:08:23  #5386


Re: Unlimited Chatting, Planning, and Weird Things ~ (@GalaxE and Spec)

Okay okay, I'm pretty sure I haven't established enough context for saying this, but my mind just kinda summarized it. So here we go.
Putting aside details for the Age of the Gods--the general idea is that the deities can no longer interfere with the real, mortal world. Even if Galaxian manifests as a Ruler, he upholds the principle and merely makes sure the dead don't influence the living. That implies the fact deities can't interfere with the mortal world is also a cosmic principle. 
Now, it can be presumed that the deities as a whole want to get back in touch with the mortal world. That's where a past component comes in--the fact that the mages might want to become deities. My idea is that if this is indeed their wish, then it might be because for all of the years the deities have been separated from humankind, no new deities have appeared. For a new deity to appear would mean an almost instant connection between the mortal realm and the immortal realm. The Master would be the connection point.
Now how to achieve this? Well, to be honest, the deities themselves might not even know. And here I'm noting two things. One, for a mortal to become a deity, GGaD says an ambrosia flower must be used just before death. Why do ambrosia flowers appear and why can they cause that effect? No one knows. Perhaps in this AU, it's related to magic? And perhaps to lore? I'm against keeping the ambrosia flower as a highly important concept in the AU (I feel like it's boring, I'm ngl. That's why I never had a mortal-born deity), but maybe it symbolizes something. Two, in general, Heroic Spirits are likely the ones closer to the gods. I'm thinking that possibly the Heroic Spirits in the AU are those who were present in the Age of the Gods, not any heroes after. That might seem weird, but it makes sense to me for some reason. Because I think, the gods are more connected to the heroes in their age and thus are more able to summon them into the mortal realm (which they have difficulties accessing), and also, I think the connection from the Heroic Spirits (when they were living) and the gods may serve as a further catalyst of some kind.
And I thought a bit too much, so back into vague territory I went. Lol, sorry. I originally was thinking only of the Masters for the concepts above, and then I thought more about Servants. I guess it might be possible that any Servants from after the Age of the Gods wouldn't connect to the gods' purposes very well, and if Servants' true roles are to somehow guide mages to the point of becoming gods (or so it seems), then people who never saw gods can't ever do that in the first place.
I swear I didn't make all this up to make the entire Modern Sect atheist lol I swear

-Galaxian-


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April 7, 2021 20:31:13  #5387


Re: Unlimited Chatting, Planning, and Weird Things ~ (@GalaxE and Spec)

Ok, I'm having limited time to reply to this so I'll examine your second post in detail later and this is a reply to your first one.

From what I've seen/read, apparently the Grail grants the Command Spells to people who really want to participate in the War. It says that the the three main families are prioritized, but they don't exist in this AU so we probably wanna skip that part. And the Grail also prioritizes mages, it seems?
Yes, I agree with what you say about deities' benefit. It's what my post was missing but you make it make more sense. I have been thinking that, yes, the Holy Grail might be a place where the deities' main power is concentrated, and therefore they can interact with the world but only when the Grail is materialized. 
I don't think it's exactly and completely through magic alone, so I have that in mind, but I also haven't had any other thoughts so it's a hole in my thoughts related to the topic. That's what I meant by "failed Wars" btw, that they didn't achieve the deities' purpose. I wonder, have any Mages actually been able to have wishes before?
This is a bit of a reply to something you mentioned in your second post: I've been keeping away from the idea of the Ambrosia Flower so much that it hasn't even crossed my mind tbh xD but since it is a part of canon GGaD lore, it should probably be incorporated in some way even if minor. Maybe it's considered an extinct species that was able to grant "magic" and bring it into existence a long time ago.
I'm sorry if there's incomplete sentences or thoughts in this reply, but I'm not really proofreading so I apologize for any typos as well.

I'd like to talk this through maybe in live chat, so we can discuss ideas at the same time and give feedback. Please confirm if you'll be able to do it tonight (I'll confirm back if you can,  because my internet might prank me or something) but if not then there's not a problem and we can continue planning here, but this worldbuilding is something I'd like to polish out in real-time at some point so please do keep that in mind.


Specter
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April 7, 2021 20:32:32  #5388


Re: Unlimited Chatting, Planning, and Weird Things ~ (@GalaxE and Spec)

Oh yeah, and it would be useful if you could brainstorm/infodump directly into this thread so I can check that out and reply too!


Specter
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that you build with a smile!

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April 7, 2021 20:41:38  #5389


Re: Unlimited Chatting, Planning, and Weird Things ~ (@GalaxE and Spec)

I didn't make what I was wondering clear enough. I meant that it seemed weird that Kiritsugu was chosen 4 years before. I know Shirou got "bruise-like marks" (Command Spell) on his hand a few days before the War officially began, but years? Weird. The wondering was whether something of this sort happens in the AU. We don't have to reason for the deities too much, just whether mages have such a head start on knowing what they might be getting into, even if they were wanting to get into the entire affair.
My personal thoughts on the link between deities and the mortal world were explained in more detail in the 2nd post, so I'm skipping the part you mentioned it here.
Interesting word choice for "failed Wars," though. I guess the deities' intent in the Grail Wars are less extreme than those of the three mortal families in Fate canon, so I wouldn't call anything a failure myself. I guess the term could be applied.
Servants and mages have won Grail Wars before. Just no mages have ever been able to fulfill the deities' purpose, thus the cycle continues. I would hope that the wishes weren't extreme. (The deities probably regulate those via the Grail, or at least those "in" or "who are" the Grail do.) Notably, one cannot just "wish" to become a deity once winning the Holy Grail War. In GGaD canon, I personally think that deities can't just give away deityship to people without giving up their own deityship. And obviously here, the deities couldn't even grant wishes directly other than by the outcome of a Grail War in the first place. I suppose if my headcanons are right, then it's more the process, less the outcome, though the outcome might be satisfactory for mortals.

I can't give you a solid response on chat. I'm trying not to get caught in some mud puddle of homework. I might be able to do so at a late hour, but by then you're at a much later hour than me. I will say that if possible, I'd love to go on chat, even if not for planning purposes, but I can't neglect what I need to do in exchange for my desires.

-Galaxian-


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April 7, 2021 23:08:03  #5390


Re: Unlimited Chatting, Planning, and Weird Things ~ (@GalaxE and Spec)

Ok, np! My brain is short-circuiting rn lol so I'm actually going to sleep early. I'm sorry if this reply doesn't make sense thanks of to that. Be sure to tell me if I missed replying to any parts of your posts! And yes, be more responsible than me and work on your hw.

Ok now to the actual answer lol sorry. I feel like saying just "I agree" and not discussing is not enough, so I'mma try to not do that. I don't want you to feel like I'm leaving everything to you tbh.
But really, reading in more detail the post you made before, I like what you're proposing. 
This is a bit more related to my own thoughts, but do you think that the equivalent of "reaching the Root" in this AU is "gaining a deity's power"? I mean, since mages tend to be concerned with becoming the most powerful they can be and stuff.
I still don't know what the Ambrosia Flower could do/mean but its being a symbol sounds pretty cool. I'll see if I come up with any ideas about that lol. 
I like the idea of heroes from the Age of Gods being summoned. Is that completely ok with you tho? I'm good with going with it if we continue with the headcanoning in that direction.
The Modern Sect being mainly atheist makes sense though xD. I'd think that a few people (probably more experienced mages or something) at least have knowledge of the deities' involvement with the Grail and their past role, though this "knowledge" is likely to have been tinted by legend to the point in which they don't have any solid facts and instead just vague ideas that seem like the truth and work out. Like, I doubt they completely know about the deities' purpose of returning to the world, but they're probably aware that the Grail is a connection between the divine world and the human world.

I have no idea of why Kiritsugu got the Command Spells that early tbh. Perhaps it had something to do with the fact that the span of time between War and War back then was longer? To be honest I don't know so all I can do is conjecture. It's up to you if you wanna make it happen, so I'd like to hear your opinion(s).
"Failed" isn't really the correct word but it's the first thing that popped into my mind so I used it. Apologies about any misunderstanding it may have caused.
Going a bit with canon, any chance that the act of "sacrificing" the Servants might strengthen the deities enough? Along with the mana mages expend during the War? Even if slowly, maybe, maybe by the time many Holy Grail Wars are successfully finished, maybe one day deities will be able to have enough power to come back. Idk. Maybe in that case the best outcome for the deities would be to not have a clear winner, as a winner would mean that some of the mana has to be sacrificed to fulfill the wish. If there's no wish, they just keep the mana. How does this sound?

And lol this might sound wild but something you mentioned earlier gave me the idea for this: What if Spec is the Grail? Like, idk, but I think that their being the Grail would provide a path for Heroic Spirits to come from the Throne of Heroes (or the equivalent in the AU) to the physical world, and also gather their essences back. They could very well assume a form like the actual cup too because they don't have an "official" appearance. Idk. Please tell me what you think about this xD I'm not very confident about this idea and I think I didn't explain it very well. 


Specter
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that you build with a smile!

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April 8, 2021 09:21:54  #5391


Re: Unlimited Chatting, Planning, and Weird Things ~ (@GalaxE and Spec)

Thank you for putting Kaleidoscope on Altera owo it makes my farming easier xD


Specter
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that you build with a smile!

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April 9, 2021 00:20:13  #5392


Re: Unlimited Chatting, Planning, and Weird Things ~ (@GalaxE and Spec)

How's your homework going?
This is a completely subtle proposal to go on chat and have fun and do stuff lol, sorry if I'm being too insistent.


Specter
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that you build with a smile!

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April 9, 2021 01:14:02  #5393


Re: Unlimited Chatting, Planning, and Weird Things ~ (@GalaxE and Spec)

Oh, uh I saw you pop in, so idk if you had tech problems or something but btw I'm still there lol I just wansn't logged in as guest 


Specter
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that you build with a smile!

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April 9, 2021 18:40:10  #5394


Re: Unlimited Chatting, Planning, and Weird Things ~ (@GalaxE and Spec)

If you interpret it that way, you're free to do so. I don't see much of a parallel between that and what's happening in this AU, so I've chosen not to think about it that way.
Though, for some reason I feel like there've been winners of the Grail War who've been like "Make me a deity!" and the deities are like "Bruh so close yet so far". Overall the association of the Grail with power makes sense though; it's probably pretty hard to win a Grail War to start off, and wishes have been proven true (I think deities can give others powers without much issue), so that's why they keep occurring.
This is up to interpretation, but yesterday night I thought maybe the deities give around 2 generations' time for a Grail War to start anew, to see new potential and new stuff happening in general.
Tbh idk how the deities choose which Heroic Spirits to take in and how they took them in in the first place. My mind is a bit more complicated for this topic but ig,,, idk, maybe it's the thought of the heroes and deities coexisting at one point making my mind jostled a bit. Maybe it's the fact that in Fate, there's a Throne of Heroes? Maybe some deity of heroes/bravery/courage/achievements (something along those lines) acts like the Throne in this world.
I was also wondering that if the process is more important than the end to the deities, how exactly that process is supposed to lead to one becoming a deity...more planning needed, ig. 
We also need to specify further just what people now about the Grail.
I'm not sure how the disappearances' of the Servants would strengthen the gods, so if you're thinking in that direction, you'll have to justify the correlation. I think that the longer a Servant survives in the Grail War, though, the connection between the immortal and mortal world becomes stronger. So maybe the Servants living is actually important, making all the Servants dying unappealing to the deities. For instance, if all Servants are somehow all surviving, that means they're all pretty strong, and so the number of links that are providing the connection makes for a stronger sum of connections. Of course, once it comes to only one Servant living, I would think the connection might be at the strongest. By then, the strength of the Servant might have to do with the Master, instead of the Master being the one to supply power to the Servant. I dunno if what I'm saying is making sense, but some of this basically reverses what Fate had and changes it in another direction.
I'm not sure if humans' mana could strengthen the deities at all. For some reason, I feel it's unlikely, but I don't want to seem like I'm striking down literally every one of your ideas. Perhaps it could be of some sustenance to specific deities, like those that deal with magic. I'm not sure. I feel like my interpretations of magic might be getting in the way for this one. For instance, I think Time and Chronos could probably get the mana, but for other magic deities, like Kenshin with his dark magic, I'm not sure if he even works with mana.
I don't feel like achieving the goal of returning back to the mortal world is a time issue. 
Funnily enough, it seems your idea with the least confidence from you is the one I'm having less issues with. I'm fine with that. Like I said yesterday in chat, they possibly are the only True Grail, too. Going on with that, I was kinda thinking of Galaxian being the true Ruler paired up with the Grail, so the Grail acts more like a channel than the Grail just summoning a Ruler in Fate canon.
I wonder what the two of them think about this entire thing going on for them. 

----

No problem lol, she's really efficient for farming

-Galaxian-


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April 9, 2021 21:36:26  #5395


Re: Unlimited Chatting, Planning, and Weird Things ~ (@GalaxE and Spec)

Before actually replying, I would like to share this

GalaxianExplosion wrote:

It says Shirou's element is "Sword"
Can I just laugh at that real quick


Specter
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that you build with a smile!

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April 9, 2021 22:28:52  #5396


Re: Unlimited Chatting, Planning, and Weird Things ~ (@GalaxE and Spec)

I'm not sure what you're replying to in the first sentence of your post so I'll just leave it there and hope it isn't something too important. 
Ok about the giving deityship though, I think we agreed it's not possible for that wish to be granted like that, right? 
About how much time is two generations? Uhhh 150 years aprox? The canon span of time between wars is 60 years, but I think you already knew that. Well, I think the reason for waiting two generations' worth of time is legit. So that can be official if you're ok with it :3.
Hmm... the idea of a deity acting like the Throne of Heroes, maybe they actually collect records of the heroes and their legends from all over time, but it isn't necessarily that all of them are from the Age of Gods. Just now I thought that perhaps it's easier to summon the heroes from long ago not only because their legends have been around for longer, but they also are more likely to have interacted with deities and so they would work better as potential links between deities and the world. Maybe that goes to the point in which it's impossible to summon a more recent Heroic Spirit unless there's a good catalyst for it?
Yeah, I don't have much to contribute to that specific part of planning atm. I think I just need a little guidance there to kinda see how your thinking goes and so I can try to brainstorm stuff.
Well, for sure they know that it can grant wishes. I guess some might know it's an artifact connected in some way with the deities, but I dunno if they'd know the extent of that connection. I don't think everyone knows about the Grail's existence though.
I just suggested that part about the disappearances as a kinda reference to the Fate canon, so I gotta say that I wasn't really thinking anything specific about it xD. So, I can't justify anything there. But, see, just mentioning it made another possibility pop up. Ok but here the thing I'm having a bit of trouble imagining at the moment is the relationship between Servants' survival and the Grail's materialization. I guess it's different here because of all the changes we've made to the system though. The thing would be that I think that there probably is a rule that only the winning Master-Servant pair can claim a wish, so then, what happens to the other six pairs? They've surely been defeated, and that means that there might be a bit of a flaw in the way the connections are done. Uh, like, the connection would be at its strongest when all Servants survive and that's what deities want, as you said, but then that could mean that the Grail can't manifest to grant the wish to the winner and establish a firmer connection. Unless I'm getting something very wrong here. But don't worry lol this is just thoughts for you to discuss and refute.
Ha, don't worry about invalidating my ideas! That's why I'm better at working with others in the first place, so they can shoot down the ideas that aren't worth thinking about in order to keep the best. But, well, in this case I think I didn't say it very well (and there's no problem lol I think I myself am having a bit of trouble trying to wrap my head around this concept in a way that makes some sense) but I didn't mean really that the deities were directly strengthened by the mana itself. I was thinking more of a "connection" of sorts, but that concept is super hazy in my mind so I can't provide any supporting details for that idea. At least we know that the mana is used for Servants though, right? Maybe that's its main use. In Fate canon the Grail gathers mana to fulfill the wish, but as we have deities involved here, it probably wouldn't be needed for that purpose. 
Okay then! So it isn't a time issue... then what is it? I'm fine with leaving this undefined, even if it's just for now.
Lol ok, then Specter's the True Grail! I'mma see if I can come up with something about it that's worth discussing lol all day my mind has been giving me these images of the Grail with Spec's hair and face and also Spec with the Dress of Heaven and to be honest those mental images are kinda cursed. 
I'm not sure of what they think. Defining that is up to us, I'm pretty sure. What do you think they think?

And thank you for taking the time to reply to this even though you're busy. Continue focusing on your classes, dude!


Specter
Let your world be a world 
that you build with a smile!

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April 10, 2021 17:15:15  #5397


Re: Unlimited Chatting, Planning, and Weird Things ~ (@GalaxE and Spec)

If I sound snarky in my response it's 'cause you keep repeating what I've said already xD
Unless a deity were able to give their own life, which isn't possible in the current channel between the two "worlds," no, that kind of wish can't be granted.
Two generations' time is around 66 years.
Most everything you said about heroes from the Age of Gods and the deities was already said by me so I'm just gonna skip over that lmiao
Having all Servants survive actually is less strong in terms of establishing connections than just having one winning Servant, mostly because sustaining all Servants in the world also has a counter-price--as in, the deities have to provide for that. So while it's good on the short-term, it's more cost-efficient if most of the Servants disappear.
Mana is probably used so that the deities, who start off every Grail War with a very weak connection to the mortal world, have a supporting anchor for the Grail War to happen in the first place. As the War progresses, the connection strengthens slightly, and surviving Servants become more independent.
It's an issue of mages growing the capability to become deities, Specter. That's the most major connection point and thus the aim of the Holy Grail War from the deities' side. 
Those images are indeed very helpful. I was thinking that Galaxian maybe manifests at the end of every Grail War to grant wishes--mostly he's there to filter through them. He's probably seen as a Spirit, ironically. But yee. Ruler shows up at the end to make sure the Grail War didn't tear up rules from the hinges and crunch them, and if that confirmation is received, he acts as a further channel to be able to see what the wishes actually are and how they will be granted. I won't talk for Specter's end, I guess. That's up to you.

No problem. I like discussing this, lol.

-Galaxian-


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April 10, 2021 18:42:29  #5398


Re: Unlimited Chatting, Planning, and Weird Things ~ (@GalaxE and Spec)

Lol just slap me or something xD serves me right lol it's probably because my mind isn't grasping the concepts very well. I think it'd be helpful if maybe a couple posts later we can summarize what we've got so far or else I am going to get my brain short-circuiting for real xD.

Ok. I wasn't completely sure about that xD.
Bruh lol I know a generation is like around forty years or something (33 from what you're saying) but I understood it the wrong way. Anyways, 66 years it can be if you want (:
(The smiley face isn't supposed to be creepy btw)
Bruh number two xD ok.
Okay! I hadn't thought of that part so yeah it's a good point. So the less Servants the better, then.
Mana = anchor, then?
Ok lol you do sound kinda cross in that part of your answer xD. Lol ok I'll keep it in mind though.
They're helpful...? o.o. 
So... Ruler kinda shows up like the woman in the Grail from Apocrypha? Kinda like that? Or are you thinking that he materializes outside the Grail?
I dunno very well how to direct my thoughts about Spec, but I was kinda thinking that they probably don't have an easy way to show a physical form due to being the Grail. Their consciousness might be reserved to a "mental space" or something. Like, not physical, and it's not that easy to contact either.

Well, I also find it fun xD It's just not that fun when my brain repeats information though :v.


Specter
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that you build with a smile!

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April 10, 2021 19:00:11  #5399


Re: Unlimited Chatting, Planning, and Weird Things ~ (@GalaxE and Spec)

You know a generation is around 40 years and then said the approximation for two generations is "150 approx"? Is that a math problem or??
Ironically, I wasn't cross, just like "what the heck, that was the main point I tried to make clear and they went off and thought it was a time issue???" It's kind of like when someone misses the entire theme of the story and just remembers the part of the book where two characters roasted each other and bases the theme off of that. Bad comparison but somewhat ideal.
The woman in the Grail would be Justeaze Lizrich von Einzbern, so...no. He materializes outside of it unless we come up with something different.

-Galaxian-


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April 10, 2021 19:11:02  #5400


Re: Unlimited Chatting, Planning, and Weird Things ~ (@GalaxE and Spec)

I'm not sure what happened I think my mind went like "80-ish years is too short???" and I tried to come up with another meaning for the span of a generation.
Hmm, maybe it wasn't that clear for me then.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Ah yes, I couldn't remember her name atm. Coolio! I think it works though.


Specter
Let your world be a world 
that you build with a smile!

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