[F/GO Arc One...Spoilers??]

Imagining Goetia with a tsundere voice: "Praise me!"
End me. End this existence, please, I'm begging you.

GalaxianExplosion wrote:

[F/GO Arc One...Spoilers??]

Imagining Goetia with a tsundere voice: "Praise me!"
End me. End this existence, please, I'm begging you.

-Galaxian-

Fate give us mini Goetia dating sim

Last edited by Echowo (July 12, 2023 07:28:50)

oof RIP, it's okay, I hope you feel better from whatever is making you upset TwT also at first I misread what you typed and thought you were upset I brought up the idea of a Goetia dating sim XD I was very confused for a short moment

I would, Spec. Have you met me?

HYXHN's latest chapter has 2 panels that really look like [crap]post material xD I wonder if it's intentional

I'm kinda concerned about the donghua's latest season ngl. So far, it's trying a bit too hard to be funny. I do need to look back at the manhua sometime to compare (I think I do have a somewhat good way of translating manhua to donghua) but rn it feels kinda awkward? Maybe it'll get better when the story really gets going. 
(But if I'm right then the problem is that it's currently trying at too many funny moments, resulting in the actual comedy being taken away, and the voice-acting can stretch it a bit at times)

-Galaxian-

Another example of a joke that might not have been as intentional on the donghua's part (only by my inference since there isn't too much effort put into it)
Susu is recalling the answers her two sisters gave her when she asked if Honghong might've ever regretted making the thousand-year pledge under the tree. And the answers are as follows--
Rongrong: You need to find that answer by yourself. 
Yaya: It's all that goddamn cockroach's fault.

And I found it pretty funny. But maybe to add to the effect, it could've been Susu narrating it. Or, alternatively, Rongrong's answer could've been a bit prolonged so the contrast between her answer's wisdom and Yaya's absolute saltiness is emphasized.
I dunno, small moments like these feel like they would've really worked.

Also the inner world portion is really stretching it atm, I remember it being really short in the manhua so ??? 
Susu is so precious though. I hope she's not swallowing like 5 gallons of sand by the minute by talking in the middle of a mental sandstorm.

-Galaxian-

They didn't need to make the mental-physical transition that realistic 💀 it ruined the joke and is giving me Xi Yangyang vibes lol

-Galaxian-

I just remembered, if they mess up the father-daughter joke I will riot
There is too much child abuse in this series for that joke to get destroyed. Do not make me do it.

-Galaxian-

GalaxianExplosion wrote:

Who are you, and what did you do with Time?
No, seriously, lemme just say real quick that I enjoy talking about topics like these. I just don't like arguments and fights. In fact, it feels more shallow to me when we all err on the safe side and never discuss anything. Topics like these might not be necessary to talk about, but I still find them super intriguing. So please don't worry about that, or at least please do minimize your worry while talking to me lol.

I can't say too much about where the idea falls under, because I'm not very good at categorizing. But if it helps, I added the psychological category because of the relation between forgiveness and emotional health, and the spiritual category because forgiveness is often correlated with [religious] belief. But both of those are because of my own impressions, and not really objective at all.

I think it's only anticlimactic (thank you for correcting the spelling btw) in my view because I saw forgiveness as being such a broad concept. As in being, y'know, something "greater than oneself." Someone doesn't just forgive, or is able to forgive, because they can be logically emotional (as I like to call it). They have something else they can see. And since I mentioned the situational component, I suppose I imagine the reason isn't individual-based, either.  I can definitely see--and to a degree, sympathize with--your perspective and your definition, even if I can only see little parts of those two things. But definition-wise I am for sure seeing a gap in how we perceive the concept, maybe due to our different personalities and backgrounds. It's still great to hear about, though. If forgiveness is truly just centered around that "internal ability" that you mentioned, then I think I understand it better than whatever I'm trying to grasp right now.
Culturally speaking, on my end, I have the Chinese tendency to inflate the importance and definition of anything that's labeled a virtue. So maybe it's possible that in the West, being able to look into oneself and make a decision to forgive someone like what you're discussing could be a virtue, but that isn't the case for Chinese. So it's very well possible that I'm just focusing on the nuance of a term from another culture's perspective, at least partially.

I do have a specific situation that I could (very pettily) discuss here...but again, I've understood that you see the definition as not being situational. You made it very clear by saying that directly, after all. xD The funny thing is, those two sayings were partially created from my perspective, so you can kinda see the conundrum there. I can't say either consistently, though, so that's why I separated the "me" from the hypothetical someones. Plus the first one is obviously closer to my usual ability to think about things.

Well, I’ll admit, I was once again typing on mobile, and I was getting lazy.

I mean, I too could talk about topics and opinions that could definitely reflect more of me, but I do not think that it will be as weirdly accepted or can be more likely to be misconstrued, hence why I don’t really do that here. I am willing to take such a risk, but I know that there will always be a chance people here won’t like what I have to say.

Honestly, I do enjoy the concept of your idea more. The idea of forgiveness being a grandeur thing. A near superpower. I like it. It’s just in real life, people nowadays don’t like to forgive, and prefer to hold grudges. Or at least that’s what the internet is showing me. It’s definitely not a good reference, but you know.

I believe that is the reason why my definition currently is so simple. It’s a “dumbed down” version that can easily be communicated to nearly everyone. It doesn’t contain that “bigger than oneself” and “hope that the person will change” part because I believe that’s what usually turns away a larger crowd. If we could just get people to feel no ill will, that would be an incremental, but still important victory.

GalaxianExplosion wrote:

I find it super interesting how you phrased the beginning there in particular. I would say that it's a really good summarization, but since I tend to overcomplicate things, I can't be a judge of that. Personally speaking, it's the latter portion that makes me more confused. How would someone who's "optimistic-realistic" fall in terms of being able to say either statement, then? Where would that faith source from?
And to answer your question at the end, my vision does not include that, as I find that illogical. At least within the context of a hypothetical example I have framed to think about the question. xD Realistically speaking (imo), "punishment" results to a "just, fair action taken as a consequence of someone's actions." So I think that forgiveness, as a mental process, is separate from that. Though it does lead to the topic of forgiving oneself,,,

Hmmm. How do you define optimistic-realistic then? As to the source of faith… I couldn’t say. That depends from person to person, I guess? I think for this part of the conversation, this requires more clarification.

GalaxianExplosion wrote:

Hmm...then how would ill will be defined? Do you think the wish for punishment/retribution would be considered ill will, for example?

This is a part of philosophy I inherited. It’s rather simple. When it comes to actions taken, think to yourself. Is there good intentions behind your actions? Or is there malice, something that is to harm the person? If it falls into the latter, then it is ill willed. If the thoughts are conveyed in a way that is hateful, harmful, or anything of the sort towards the other. Then it has ill will. That’s why I say anger is one of the most ugly emotions. It’s so easy to rile up, and its source, I believe, is negative.

GalaxianExplosion wrote:

I think a part of why I think it's situational is because of what you're saying here, but I feel like I've said that so many times, so I apologize xD. I do agree with the factors you're giving examples of here, though in my view, I pretty much didn't apply forgiveness as a concept to the lower-intensity things that you mentioned. Guess I just wanna think all high-and-mighty, huh? 
It's hard to really make my definition of "situational" solid. In general, I view a lot of things as varying by situation, just because that's easier for my mind to process. But since we're talking about a universal definition here, well, I at least gotta try. So here goes some of the factors that go into weighing whether or not someone, say, "should" be forgiven:
-Intensity: What degree of hurt (physical/emotional) did they inflict on another?
-Are the people involved strangers? Acquaintances? Friends? Family?
-Motivations: What caused this person to act the way they did? Did they have control over themselves and their actions/decisions? 
-Background: Are there relevant events that happened before this incident that should be considered?
-Was what happened a crime, legally speaking?
-Sincerity: What is the "person to be forgiven" willing to do to make up for what they did? And what have they actually done/what will they actually do? 

As you can see, forgiving a friend for, uh, ghosting you is quite different from. Uhh. How do I give examples that aren't extreme. Help.

Yes. I believe that all of these are good factors in taking the “level of forgiveness required” to forgive someone. I think the main way to solve this forgiveness question is, “What does situational mean?” Naturally, you said yourself the definition is cloudy as of the moment, so I’ll ask a question to help explore. So when it comes to the situational state of forgiveness, do you reserve the word forgiveness for only the more major situations? Would you say “forgiving” is the right word for when a stranger bumps into you while walking, but you keep on with your day?

I’ll just leave this piece on hold for now, I want to see if we can clear this up.

GalaxianExplosion wrote:

That's very true, even if I have little/no confidence in my own definition. It's more so me trying to use the supposedly empathetic aspect of my personality, but really, it goes back to the pity thing you mentioned. I try to see myself as fortunate, in having a good education and upbringing because, believe me, I have ample reason to believe I would have been way worse. So when someone says or does something (especially does) to me that is genuinely hurtful, and they intended to hurt me (and also I didn't do anything to them to warrant retaliation or whatever, which would be more justified), I try to remember that maybe they just have not had the chance to be a better person thus far. And also that I myself need to be a better person as well. 
Maybe that's just putting myself on a moral pedestal, I dunno.

Hm, this is definitely cloudy ground. I wouldn’t know what to say here. I would say though this could likely be the area where people call forgiveness “weak”. As you give them the chance to change. I would say some here would teach it to them personally, retaliating back, showing that such actions are not accepted… if I’m understanding what you wrote correctly.

GalaxianExplosion wrote:

I personally don't think you said or think anything that needs to be restructured, and I hope I didn't either (though you have a much better sense of judgment than me, so I probably did say something that needs to be edited, and you should feel at liberty to change whatever you want to change).

Thanks

GalaxianExplosion wrote:

Also, I guess it's true that "I forgive [someone]" sounds arrogant, but if someone's saying it sincerely, I really don't see a problem with it. Rather, I find the fact that society as a whole tries to hold us to say things that aren't true or completely true to be irksome. Sometimes we just gotta hear some things, you know? And say some things?

Hm. You could be correct. It’s not the act of saying it, but rather the implied emotion behind it. Maybe arrogance is the incorrect word, more like, incredulousness. “This person is irredeemable! How could you forgive them??” sort of deal. Maybe?

GalaxianExplosion wrote:

I dunno how long this conversation will remain interesting to you, so feel free to stop responding at any time. But I hope it's indulged you somewhat so far! Thanks again for talking about stuff like this. I've missed times where we could talk about random topics at length like this, more than I can express. So yeah, I appreciate it.

yeah 👍
I will admit on my part. It sometimes gets exhausting to write these long posts, but I'll keep on doing them.

Last edited by Time (July 14, 2023 23:41:11)

Time wrote:

Well, I’ll admit, I was once again typing on mobile, and I was getting lazy.
I mean, I too could talk about topics and opinions that could definitely reflect more of me, but I do not think that it will be as weirdly accepted or can be more likely to be misconstrued, hence why I don’t really do that here. I am willing to take such a risk, but I know that there will always be a chance people here won’t like what I have to say.

Fair xD
Well, y'know, the decision is ultimately yours. But I do think that friends don't like everything about each other. Rather, friendships are sustained by effort on both ends, and time. For instance, in learning to accept those flaws, or even just to communicate about them. Hint hint: This is me telling you all to please definitely start roasting me for my incompetency and overbearing attitude.

Time wrote:

Honestly, I do enjoy the concept of your idea more. The idea of forgiveness being a grandeur thing. A near superpower. I like it. It’s just in real life, people nowadays don’t like to forgive, and prefer to hold grudges. Or at least that’s what the internet is showing me. It’s definitely not a good reference, but you know.

Why, thank you. But the problem is that it sounds great in theory. Then when I have to figure out how I should react to actual situations, or even how I should define my viewpoint, it all goes down the drain. As for the latter part, I guess all I can say is that misinformation and lack of knowledge/self-awareness (along with other factors) are a helluva pair. Even non-politically speaking (the original intention was not political but "misinformation" sounds political,,, oof on my part).

Time wrote:

I believe that is the reason why my definition currently is so simple. It’s a “dumbed down” version that can easily be communicated to nearly everyone. It doesn’t contain that “bigger than oneself” and “hope that the person will change” part because I believe that’s what usually turns away a larger crowd. If we could just get people to feel no ill will, that would be an incremental, but still important victory.

I hadn't thought of it that way. Again, it really shows how we have different personalities and ways of thinking about things. Like if you hadn't said that, I would've thought that the hopeful component would help in conveying the message rather than detracting from it. I wonder if someone would interpret this as me being more hopeful, or just more naive? I think that what you said made me realize that my viewpoint is actually kinda optimistic (maybe emptily so), more like one of the viewpoints my younger self would have had. 
I do have to say that even though I dunno how well my message would get across to people (at least in terms of the difference that the parts you mentioned would have made in theory), I dunno how practical yours is either. Mostly, I feel like people aren't that practical. Maybe they should be. But sometimes...it feels like they enjoy being angry, at least once in a while. You know? It gives them that sense of purpose that they yearn for, whether or not they're actually right, and if other supporters rally around them, it also gives them social support (another human need). So, I'm not too sure if a message like "forgiveness will help you maintain peace of mind for yourself" will work given that component, at least if the listener is under that sort of mindset (temporarily or under a more long-term). Have you talked to other people on this subject before, especially as a form of advice? I'd be interested in hearing the results. 

Time wrote:

Hmmm. How do you define optimistic-realistic then? As to the source of faith… I couldn’t say. That depends from person to person, I guess? I think for this part of the conversation, this requires more clarification.

Sorry for being vague as always. I meant that since it's usually accepted that optimism and pessimism (and "realism" if that's a thing) are on a spectrum, and no one is really consistently optimistic or pessimistic, then would it logically be possible that someone will situationally (yes, this word again lol) say either statement and/or be able to forgive only depending on the circumstance, rather than on their usual philosophical/moral beliefs? 
For instance, since we brought it up...it's much more easy to believe in and hope for the growth of someone's character when they're close to you. Is that "optimistic," or more "realistic"? How does that even reflect on the evaluator's character, if most people will follow this trend? 

Time wrote:

This is a part of philosophy I inherited. It’s rather simple. When it comes to actions taken, think to yourself. Is there good intentions behind your actions? Or is there malice, something that is to harm the person? If it falls into the latter, then it is ill willed. If the thoughts are conveyed in a way that is hateful, harmful, or anything of the sort towards the other. Then it has ill will. That’s why I say anger is one of the most ugly emotions. It’s so easy to rile up, and its source, I believe, is negative.

Just to start off this portion of the response, I feel like a lot of this post is me countering your points, and I really do apologize for that. It's more so me expressing my point of view and trying to weigh it against your viewpoint than me disagreeing with you because, as I've mentioned, I really do believe in nuance. But philosophy is weird in the sense that it tries to piece everything together into a coherent whole, when usually my mindset tries to incorporate all those pieces without coherent summarization. Maybe I'm actually anti-philosophical lol.
So again, I theoretically agree with what you're saying, but you actually didn't answer the question I put forward. Do you think the wish for punishment/retribution would be considered ill will? For example, just as a tamer example, let's say a thief who stole a family's car is found and arrested. Would the family wishing for him to be jailed and imprisoned (for any amount of time) be operating under ill will? I do feel like it'd be hard to argue that wanting someone to be put in a room would be malicious, but also I can't see it as being good-intentioned, if you know what I mean. There's a degree of reason to them being angry, and to their thoughts...and perhaps the human race would have to be perfect for this scenario to be judged in an absolute manner.
To reiterate, I theoretically agree with most of what you're mentioning, I just feel like it maybe goes to extremes that I currently can't see, so I really want to understand what you think of controversies like these. Though it's possible that I'm stretching the conversation beyond where it should go, and if I am, then I duly apologize again.

Time wrote:

Yes. I believe that all of these are good factors in taking the “level of forgiveness required” to forgive someone. I think the main way to solve this forgiveness question is, “What does situational mean?” Naturally, you said yourself the definition is cloudy as of the moment, so I’ll ask a question to help explore. So when it comes to the situational state of forgiveness, do you reserve the word forgiveness for only the more major situations? Would you say “forgiving” is the right word for when a stranger bumps into you while walking, but you keep on with your day?

I’ll just leave this piece on hold for now, I want to see if we can clear this up.

For the example you gave (of a stranger bumping into you), the best words I can come up with right now are tolerance and empathy. Tolerance, as in "I'm ready to move on with my life and ignore the small challenges/obstacles that pop up along the way." And empathy, as in "I understand that others are imperfect, make mistakes, and usually have the best of intentions." Combined for this particular example: "I am ready to assume that they did not bump into me on purpose and am willing to move on without listing this as a slight against myself or my wellbeing." 
I suppose I really do reserve "forgiveness" as a concept and word for the more major situations, when someone has the "right" to be in that superior position. Of being able to "forgive" someone else. 
So essentially, it's possible forgiveness only comes into consideration depending on these factors:
-level of intent
-level of repercussions
but that's imperfect, so I'm ready for further questioning to be raised on this. And of course I'd love if you corrected it or put forth your own take. I'm happy though, I feel like your question helped me solidify this all of a sudden. Thank you.

Time wrote:

Hm, this is definitely cloudy ground. I wouldn’t know what to say here. I would say though this could likely be the area where people call forgiveness “weak”. As you give them the chance to change. I would say some here would teach it to them personally, retaliating back, showing that such actions are not accepted… if I’m understanding what you wrote correctly.

True that, and I understand. I knew how it sounded (more or less) when I wrote it, and in retrospect...I can see how it sounds even more so. xD But I do have to add that my standpoint isn't from a moral or philosophical ground, it's a practical viewpoint that helps me think through situations. It might not be right, or great for others. But it's helpful for me. 

Time wrote:

Hm. You could be correct. It’s not the act of saying it, but rather the implied emotion behind it. Maybe arrogance is the incorrect word, more like, incredulousness. “This person is irredeemable! How could you forgive them??” sort of deal. Maybe?

That's true, everyone will react to something differently. And that's why this conversation is interesting. Because at my core I feel like there isn't an actual answer that this conversation could cultivate, at least when it comes to all the situations that may entail "forgiveness." I feel like because people tend to want to be different from others, and maybe gravitate towards conflict (I want to believe they are only attracted towards it rather than harboring an actual want to create it, but you can probably sense some skepticism here), it's hard for a single interpretation to work, not to mention be conveyed (because everyone reacts to things differently, and has different biases that factor into how well they listen and will consider outside/unfamiliar viewpoints). 
That's all just to say that I just think it depends on the listener. I can immediately think of the death penalty as an example. Sometimes families of victims can forgive, no matter the basis of that forgiveness, while outsiders react in a similar way to what you gave as an example. It culminates in an interesting combination of understanding both sides but not really being able to side with either, or similar paradoxes. 

Time wrote:

yeah 👍
I will admit on my part. It sometimes gets exhausting to write these long posts, but I'll keep on doing them.

Believe it or not, I sometimes get tired thinking about how I should start and end long posts too. But then I just turn on the Inconsiderate button and ramble on. 
Again, feel free not to respond (this isn't the opposite of what I actually mean btw, at least I think). This conversation's been super interesting already, and I'm really enjoying it. 

-Galaxian-

Props to Wang Fugui's voice actor, he's making up for the visual lapse in terms of comedy lol

Also Wang Fugui is just Wangquan Fugui with a tie and glasses confirmed?? jk btw he also has attitude problems

-Galaxian-

Imagining F/DA Saber getting their coffee cup knocked out of their hands and then just standing there staring down at their hands, utterly disappointed. Also they're sort of in a stupor. And trying to figure out what's going on, and how they should react.
What can I say. It is too fun to bully them.

They feel like someone who would dissolve cough drops in milk because they thought that was the correct way to eat them please someone help them

-Galaxian-

Saber and Caster, mixing in orange juice with hot chocolate because they like both of those drinks so why wouldn't this be a good idea:

I'm gradually realizing my mind really likes pairing these two together so Archer (and probably Lancer) can develop heart problems.
Ngl I feel like those two would genuinely enjoy milk+orange juice (so basically curdled milk)
Archer just disintegrates on the spot (Lancer covers her eyes and bemoans the state of today's youth, though honestly I think it'd be funny if Saber at least is chronologically before Lancer's time by even just a bit, funnyyy).

Bonus reaction headcanons:
-Helge is pretty dang bad at chemistry so he's watching all of this unfold with only the slightest bit of concern (he doesn't understand why Lancer looks like the sky is falling down to condemn them all and honestly probably doesn't really care that Archer is now just Gone)
-Sunny is on the way, but it is too late.
-Aisline is saying to herself "It's just a phase a phase a phase." It is not actually a phase but she does have to be the chillest Master in the cast somehow. 
-Assassin feels like someone who would egg them on. Consequently, Ambryll is also having a stroke

-Galaxian-

I like how my headcanoning has converted from Wholesome Beverage Club thoughts to ideas for Guardian Torture

-Galaxian-

I logged in for no reason. Why did I do that

-Galaxian-